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jwb 12-02-2020 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWWP (Post 2147735)
Sure you can, lizard brain.

you don't even do it in practice

If gender was actually meaningless there would be no reason for trans.

WWWP 12-02-2020 12:59 PM

Joe Rogan's personality and career is entirely based on his physique and maintenance of his masculinity. It does not have the same "stretch of the imagination" quality as the example I gave in Elliott.

Boo, bad form.

WWWP 12-02-2020 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2147738)
you don't even do it in practice

If gender was actually meaningless there would be no reason for trans.

I know, I alluded to that.
It's a topic of multitudes, there's no clear cut answer.
I'm just presenting the argument as it has been presented to me.

jwb 12-02-2020 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWWP (Post 2147740)
I know, I alluded to that.
It's a topic of multitudes, there's no clear cut answer.

I think you are avoiding the inherent paradox in your ideology. The reality is trans people are maintaining the gender distinction, not abolishing it.

Marie Monday 12-02-2020 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWWP (Post 2147728)
I know what you mean, it's like tuning in to a shared experience or insecurity or something. Seeing someone struggle with their identity doesn't always automatically mean TRANS or NB but there are definitely gut feelings like "I see you trying on these different costumes and masks, good for you, can't wait until you figure out which one is you" kind of thing.

With Elliot Page, he'd already been an outspoken queer figure, so I can understand why it doesn't take any stretch of the imagination for one to accept that he is genderqueer as well. It's just weird to say "it's not surprising" because who exactly IS surprised? Who has a stake in his identity to the point where this is surprising news? Is it surprising when someone comes out as gay? I don't think so, it just *is.* Like by saying you're not surprised are you trying to show that you're that much more accepting of it? Or that you somehow predicted it? Or that your thumb weighs so heavily on the pulse of queer culture that you have some kind of extra sense that makes you privy to this information? Just a weird thing to say imo.

Whether it's weird depends on the reason. In my case it simply means that I'm surprised they had these issues similar to mine, because I didn't pick up on it. I don't think that's weird at all.
Well, with a celebrity it is a bit weird, of course. But still it can matter all the world whether a celebrity comes out as gay, it's not always something that just *is*. People need representation and role models; I cannot begin to explain what seeing Jodie Foster as a closeted teen meant to me.

Lucem Ferre 12-02-2020 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWWP (Post 2147739)
Joe Rogan's personality and career is entirely based on his physique and maintenance of his masculinity. It does not have the same "stretch of the imagination" quality as the example I gave in Elliott.

Boo, bad form.

I'll show you bad form, ya bimbo!

WWWP 12-02-2020 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marie Monday (Post 2147744)
Whether it's weird depends on the reason. In my case it simply means that I'm surprised they had these issues similar to mine, because I didn't pick up on it. I don't think that's weird at all.
Well, with a celebrity it is a bit weird, of course. But still it can matter all the world whether a celebrity comes out as gay, it's not always something that just *is*. People need representation and role models; I cannot begin to explain what seeing Jodie Foster as a closeted teen meant to me.

That's a good point, representation is so important. The element of having a public reputation and career dependent upon it as such does give it a certain weight - by saying it just *is* I don't mean to say it isn't important.

Marie Monday 12-02-2020 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWWP (Post 2147747)
That's a good point, representation is so important. The element of having a public reputation and career dependent upon it as such does give it a certain weight - by saying it just *is* I don't mean to say it isn't important.

what exactly do you mean then?

elphenor 12-02-2020 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2147738)
you don't even do it in practice

If gender was actually meaningless there would be no reason for trans.

it's not meaningless, it's just a social construct

ways of signifying identity are extremely important to most of us

jwb 12-02-2020 11:06 PM

Social construct is such an ambiguous term though

Species is a social construct. Life is a social construct. Etc

Tristan_Geoff 12-02-2020 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2147738)
you don't even do it in practice

If gender was actually meaningless there would be no reason for trans.

Well yeah but that’s just bc of how force gender roles have been enforced due to white colonialism. Also dysphoria is a thing.

jwb 12-02-2020 11:53 PM

Gender predates white colonialism by such a wide margin lol

It's like you guys just say **** you think sounds woke for the sake of it

Bottom line is if you divorce gender from any associated characteristics it loses its meaning by definition. Dysphoria would be similarly meaningless without this association.

Marie Monday 12-03-2020 02:55 AM

Yeah some of this sounds like AI-generated wokeness posts

elphenor 12-03-2020 03:38 AM

social construct is not an ambiguous term

elphenor 12-03-2020 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2147819)
Bottom line is if you divorce gender from any associated characteristics it loses its meaning by definition. Dysphoria would be similarly meaningless without this association.

what's your point?

gender is made up of a series of arbitrary characteristics that both change with time and vary culture to culture

jwb 12-03-2020 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 2147837)
social construct is not an ambiguous term

Life is a social construct.

Social construct in itself isn't necessarily ambiguous but the way it's used can be misleading. Like saying gender isn't meaningless but it's a social construct. What is your point?

jwb 12-03-2020 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 2147838)
what's your point?

gender is made up of a series of arbitrary characteristics that both change with time and vary culture to culture

try
reading the posts I'm responding to for a clue on what my point is.

Lucem Ferre 12-03-2020 10:46 AM

Why do we poop sitting on a toilet instead of over a toilet?

Lucem Ferre 12-03-2020 10:47 AM

Sometimes I really just insist on saying some stupid ****, don't I?

elphenor 12-03-2020 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2147862)
Life is a social construct.

Social construct in itself isn't necessarily ambiguous but the way it's used can be misleading. Like saying gender isn't meaningless but it's a social construct. What is your point?

it exists...it's important to people...it has an incredible influence

but it's only "real" as learned behavior and culture that's evolved over time

my point being that it's totally possible to be a gender abolitionist while feeling most comfortable in a performative masculine or fem role

in a society that's so aggressively built around this dichotomy it makes sense that gender has this in-between stage now where there's a multitude identifiers

jwb 12-03-2020 11:45 AM

I don't want to create another evolutionary rabbit hole discussion but we don't see things the same. I think some attributes are more cultural than others. The more ubiquitous an attribute is across cultures the less it appears to strictly be arbitrarily learned behavior to me.

As for gender abolition... I think people intuitively categorize the world around them as pattern seeking creatures, and so long as there is a spectrum of attributes that people have, these categories will exist conceptually.

So if you and many other people happen to have more masculine tendencies, that will manifest itself as a conceptual category regardless of whether you use the word "man" to describe it. If we all became uniformly androgynous then gender would actually be abolished by having no conceptual or useful meaning. I don't see that as a likely direction we're headed in.

WWWP 12-03-2020 01:38 PM

I agree with you in that humans will always categorize themselves and others, there's no switching that off, it's how our brain processes inormation, and so, even with the absence of language we will see groupings of similar behaviors or outward presentation. I wonder if these "identity" categories that have become such an important part of the Larger Conversation are simply just an overcorrection - exploring gender identity and sexuality has never been something valued in our society, so by asserting your identity and your alternative pronouns and knowing the definitions of all the new jargon and setting unreasonable expectations for everyone outside of your group to adhere to these new rules, you're taking back some of that power and reclaiming space and refusing to live the "DADT," "I don't mind it I just dont want to see it in public stop shoving it down our throats" lives that so many before have. It would be going backward to resign to letting the System remain in tact.

Marie Monday 12-03-2020 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWWP (Post 2147886)
I agree with you in that humans will always categorize themselves and others, there's no switching that off, it's how our brain processes inormation, and so, even with the absence of language we will see groupings of similar behaviors or outward presentation. I wonder if these "identity" categories that have become such an important part of the Larger Conversation are simply just an overcorrection - exploring gender identity and sexuality has never been something valued in our society, so by asserting your identity and your alternative pronouns and knowing the definitions of all the new jargon and setting unreasonable expectations for everyone outside of your group to adhere to these new rules, you're taking back some of that power and reclaiming space and refusing to live the "DADT," "I don't mind it I just dont want to see it in public stop shoving it down our throats" lives that so many before have. It would be going backward to resign to letting the System remain in tact.

I think that's how it works yeah, that's a good explanation. And jwb's comments about gender abolition not being possible are exactly why we need the gender expansion compromise

WWWP 12-03-2020 05:07 PM

People HATE having grey areas.

elphenor 12-04-2020 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2147877)
I don't want to create another evolutionary rabbit hole discussion but we don't see things the same. I think some attributes are more cultural than others. The more ubiquitous an attribute is across cultures the less it appears to strictly be arbitrarily learned behavior to me.

that's great because we know that gender is not the same all around the world

so uh case closed

elphenor 12-04-2020 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWWP (Post 2147886)
I agree with you in that humans will always categorize themselves and others, there's no switching that off, it's how our brain processes inormation, and so, even with the absence of language we will see groupings of similar behaviors or outward presentation. I wonder if these "identity" categories that have become such an important part of the Larger Conversation are simply just an overcorrection - exploring gender identity and sexuality has never been something valued in our society, so by asserting your identity and your alternative pronouns and knowing the definitions of all the new jargon and setting unreasonable expectations for everyone outside of your group to adhere to these new rules, you're taking back some of that power and reclaiming space and refusing to live the "DADT," "I don't mind it I just dont want to see it in public stop shoving it down our throats" lives that so many before have. It would be going backward to resign to letting the System remain in tact.

I don't really see what the "unreasonable expectation" is here honestly

thing is whatever jargon we come up with is just as valid as male/female because it's all essentially made up

Marie Monday 12-04-2020 02:10 AM

Expecting anyone, even people who did not grow up in such an environment, to know all the ins and outs of very complicated gender structures sounds reasonable to you?
Sometimes the zeal to be progressive can actually flip over to the other side and become intolerant, or not aware enough of the struggles of people outside of a progressive bubble.

elphenor 12-04-2020 02:51 AM

yeah but we all know that's not what we're dealing with

it's not people who in good faith didn't know, and there's no harm in correcting someone anyhow

elphenor 12-04-2020 03:04 AM

also tangentially piping hot take

but the left will never EVER achieve anything without winning The Culture War

you can't have solidarity with a working class that has a regressive culture

Marie Monday 12-04-2020 03:06 AM

It is what we're dealing with: 'everyone outside of your group'. The majority of people will not be malignant, just ignorant, even in my experience as a target for that kind of intolerance. Holland is relatively progressive of course, but even jn other places many people will mean well.
And even in progressive bubbles it seems like some people assert there are hundreds of genders. Expecting people to keep track of all of that without stumbling is unreasonable.

Marie Monday 12-04-2020 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 2147946)
also tangentially piping hot take

but the left will never EVER achieve anything without winning The Culture War

you can't have solidarity with a working class that has a regressive culture

Woke AI goes bleep

Marie Monday 12-04-2020 03:11 AM

But anyway, the point I was trying to make is simply that humanity and empathy is way more important than wokeness, and wokeness can get in the way of that when it's ill-considered.

elphenor 12-04-2020 03:18 AM

I live in the US south so ye my perspective is different

the expected is straight out transphobia and aggressive adherence to traditional gender roles

tbh I want these people obliterated, like OH wants to burn churches

elphenor 12-04-2020 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marie Monday (Post 2147948)
Woke AI goes bleep

a bunch of grunting Five Finger Death Punch listening White Claw drinking no book reading Joe Rogan watching white men(and their trad wives) are not ever gonna wake up and be allies of socialism

it's the biggest leftist LARP of the day

nah even Mao knew there had to be a cultural revolution first

jwb 12-04-2020 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 2147939)
that's great because we know that gender is not the same all around the world

so uh case closed

it's not the exact same but some attributes are more universal than others. There are fairly broad generalizations you can make about gender that apply regardless of the culture you are referring to.

This is what I mean by social construct being a misleading term. There's no one definition of life or what makes an entity a form of life. There are multiple competing definitions. There's no one definition of species or what differentiates one species from another. But life is still a natural phenomenon. So is speciation. The fact that it's complicated doesn't make it any less concrete a description of some underlying reality.

As WWWP said, people hate grey areas. To me, the gender abolitionist approach seems like they seize on the grey areas and then conclude that the category is invalid because it's not clear cut black and white. I'm perfectly willing to accept the grey areas and that doesn't make me think the category itself is problematic.

elphenor 12-04-2020 04:48 AM

it seems we form categories out of necessity or assistance, but that these categories have only very loose biological basis

so as we enter a time where these categories become less necessary we see the strigency of these categories evaporating at the ends

in some societies there's already been more than one gender historically

jwb 12-04-2020 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 2147964)
it seems we form categories out of necessity or assistance, but that these categories have only very loose biological basis

Does life or speciation have only a loose biological basis?

Or is it that categories only lack a biological basis when they deal specifically with humans. How curious.

Quote:

so as we enter a time where these categories become less necessary we see the strigency of these categories evaporating at the ends

in some societies there's already been more than one gender historically
that's just it. I'm not seeing any such evaporation of the category I'm seeing people who were previously miscategorized correcting the record and identifying with what they see as the proper category. The idea that this is just a transitional phase to removing the category altogether is just pure conjecture mixed with wishful thinking. Nothing more.

elphenor 12-04-2020 05:07 AM

I would need to walk the convo back 200 yards to address the speciation bit (it's not comparable to gender)

but I'd say going from 2 gender identities to now maybe 100 or more, is an indication of gender moving to a spectrum like model

I do think it likely won't be in our lifetimes that we all adop Ze, Zey or whatevs but who knows

jwb 12-04-2020 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 2147972)
I would need to walk the convo back 200 yards to address the speciation bit (it's not comparable to gender)

please do address it

Because I think you draw a sort of distinction between what is biological and what is socially constructed that in reality is far less distinct than you realize

Quote:

but I'd say going from 2 gender identities to now maybe 100 or more, is an indication of gender moving to a spectrum like model

I do think it likely won't be in our lifetimes that we all adop Ze, Zey or whatevs but who knows
please... Name 10 major genders and try describing the functional differences between them

We're shifting from a binary distinction to a bimodal distribution i.e. a "spectrum". That isn't undermining the category. It's just adding contextual nuance

elphenor 12-04-2020 05:47 AM

the extremely obvious difference is that species don't go performing their species


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