The Official Religious/Political Debate Thread (house, American, quote)

It all comes down to the fact that Isreal is a bully. Not only are they bullies, but they are fully funded and supported by the worlds biggest bully, The United States.
To put it bluntly, the United States is Isreal's bitch. They are a country slightly bigger than New Jersey, with one of the largest and most advanced militaries in the world. Who funded and provided for this military? Every United States President since Isreal's creation.
Hizbolla, is not Lebanon, Lebanon did not kidnap Isreali soldiers, Hizbollah did.
Why then, are the Isrealis attacking commercial, civilian areas of Lebanon? And how is that Justified?

Not only that, but for years Isreali troops have been stationed in other surrounding countries, and illegally at that. Hizbollah was created for the purpose of removing illegally station Isreali troops out of Lebanon. If the Isrealis want to start a fight, they need to start that fight with Hizbollah, not with Lebanon.

Isreal is wrong. Plain and simple. The sad part is, that the United States will undoubtably back Isreal in their terror reighn on Lebanon.

And PS: Raine, your "I'm ashamed to be an American persona is pathetic. "Some well-deserved bombings"..How stupid are you? The majority of the United States does not agree with George W. Bush, hence why he has an approval rating in the 30%-40% range. Do you think that you are the only person with your ideals?
America as a country, does not deserve to be bombed because our president is a loser. That is a stupid comment to make.

[riseagainstrocks]

1. Hizbollah is sheltered by Lebanon. Making them allies.

2. Isreal is doing what they have to to survive. You all seem to think that if they didn't fight anyone, they'd be left alone. The very hour the countries constitution was signed, Egypt and several other Middle Eastern states declared war. Why? Because they are taught to hate Jewish people. As long as Isreal exist, there will be conflict.

3. Terror reign on Lebanon? Hardly. Whenever an innocent man/woman/child dies it is a sad thing, and Isreal should attempt to be more accurate. But you all seem to forget that EVERY DAY there is suicide bombers from these radical extremist who BLOW THEMSELVES UP in crowded streets, cafe's, nightclubs, and other populated areas killing sometimes 1 and sometimes 10's or hundreds of people. Telling Isreal to be pinpoint accurate is SHEER hypocrisy and I'm shocked at many of you.

4. This is not to say that Isreal should fight at the level of these terrorist, but where the hell are your criticism of them? I haven't found one.

5. The U.S. being Isreal's bitch? What? Are you daft? The US has played a very small role in Isreal's politics over the last 5-6 years. Ariel Sharon was very against outside involvement. He saw this struggle as the Jewish people against those that hate them. He didn't come crawling to the US as some of you make it sound.

6. DontRunMeOver, your analogy has me confused. It should be when the man in the red shirt blows up the shopping center killing 20 children and their mothers, Isreal responds by acting on the best information possible killing the man in the red shirts co-conspiritors and the occasional accidental civilian. But of course BBC doesn't report that. You only hear how evil Isreal is oppressing the Palistinians and destroying Mosques.

7. Raine...you're simply and idiot. Read a history book. Or anything for that matter.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

1. Hizbollah is sheltered by Lebanon. Making them allies.

2. Isreal is doing what they have to to survive. You all seem to think that if they didn't fight anyone, they'd be left alone. The very hour the countries constitution was signed, Egypt and several other Middle Eastern states declared war. Why? Because they are taught to hate Jewish people. As long as Isreal exist, there will be conflict.

3. Terror reign on Lebanon? Hardly. Whenever an innocent man/woman/child dies it is a sad thing, and Isreal should attempt to be more accurate. But you all seem to forget that EVERY DAY there is suicide bombers from these radical extremist who BLOW THEMSELVES UP in crowded streets, cafe's, nightclubs, and other populated areas killing sometimes 1 and sometimes 10's or hundreds of people. Telling Isreal to be pinpoint accurate is SHEER hypocrisy and I'm shocked at many of you.

4. This is not to say that Isreal should fight at the level of these terrorist, but where the hell are your criticism of them? I haven't found one.

5. The U.S. being Isreal's bitch? What? Are you daft? The US has played a very small role in Isreal's politics over the last 5-6 years. Ariel Sharon was very against outside involvement. He saw this struggle as the Jewish people against those that hate them. He didn't come crawling to the US as some of you make it sound.

6. DontRunMeOver, your analogy has me confused. It should be when the man in the red shirt blows up the shopping center killing 20 children and their mothers, Isreal responds by acting on the best information possible killing the man in the red shirts co-conspiritors and the occasional accidental civilian. But of course BBC doesn't report that. You only hear how evil Isreal is oppressing the Palistinians and destroying Mosques.

7. Raine...you're simply and idiot. Read a history book. Or anything for that matter.

Hizbollah are not mindlessly blowing themselves up in crowded Israeli streets, you are confusing them with the Palestinians.
Hizbollah was created for the sole purpose of removing illegally stationed Isreali troops from Lebanon.
They are not a terrorist organization.

Also, I am far from daft. The United States has backed every endeavor Israel goes on. Look at UN voting records.
The US always votes with Israel. Always.

And I wholeheartedly agree with your 7th point.

[Barnard17]

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

2. Isreal is doing what they have to to survive. You all seem to think that if they didn't fight anyone, they'd be left alone. The very hour the countries constitution was signed, Egypt and several other Middle Eastern states declared war. Why? Because they are taught to hate Jewish people. As long as Isreal exist, there will be conflict.

Israel is fighting an offensive war, not a defensive one. They do not hate the Jewish people, they hate that the presence of Israel means that millions of Palestinians are being displaced, thousands are kept prisoner, Israel ignores country boundaries in it's opression of Palestine, Israel practically ignores Human Rights etc etc ...

If Israel stopped acting like morons, there would be no need for conflict.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

But you all seem to forget that EVERY DAY there is suicide bombers from these radical extremist who BLOW THEMSELVES UP in crowded streets, cafe's, nightclubs, and other populated areas killing sometimes 1 and sometimes 10's or hundreds of people.

Crap, I was forgetting that EVERY LEBANESE PERSON IS A FUTURE SUICIDE BOMBER. We should kill them all, and the tourists who are there, to eliminate the threat. I mean seriously, those 400 lebanese civillian casualties? They weren't innocent. They come from the same country as Hezbullah, they're obviously guilty. They were practically WEARING the bomb jackets already as they fleed the terror as refugees, or sat in their apartments whilst we bomb it. I could see the terrorism in their eyes, from my plane.

For the record, I'm being disproportionate. Israel is dealing with Lebanon and Palestine the same way that the Nazis dealt with the Jews. Ghettoisation, disproportionate retribution and oppression.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Telling Isreal to be pinpoint accurate is SHEER hypocrisy and I'm shocked at many of you.

Excuse me? How is it hypocritical of me to tell Israel to not target civillian locations with shells and patriot missiles?

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

4. This is not to say that Isreal should fight at the level of these terrorist, but where the hell are your criticism of them? I haven't found one.

Start a thread about it so that we can complain about the terrorists then. If you hadn't noticed this thread is about Israels actions against Lebanon, so specific acts of unrelated terrorist groups from the area understandable don't pop up much.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

5. The U.S. being Isreal's bitch? What? Are you daft? The US has played a very small role in Isreal's politics over the last 5-6 years. Ariel Sharon was very against outside involvement. He saw this struggle as the Jewish people against those that hate them. He didn't come crawling to the US as some of you make it sound.

Ariel Sharon didn't complain about $15mil US tax dollars daily. If it weren't for the US, Israel would be bankrupt.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

6. DontRunMeOver, your analogy has me confused. It should be when the man in the red shirt blows up the shopping center killing 20 children and their mothers,

This is, of course, after the man in the red shirt has lived a life that is controlled by Israelis. After his brother and mother were killed during an Israeli incursion, after his sister died in the Ambulance on Palestinian land because an illegally placed Israeli checkpoint wouldn't let it pass, so rather than a 5minute journey to hospital it had to take a 1hour journey. After his friend was stopped at a checkpoint and the Israeli troops there took him aside and broke his arm for no good reason other than the fact that IDF conscripts are racist. After he has to spend 4 hours waiting at an illegal checkpoint every morning on the way to work, and 4 hours on the way back. After the village where relatives lives has it's water supply cut off because it's being monopolised by an illegal Israeli village. The list goes on. You can't drive someone to suicide bomb purely out of racism and a belief that they'll go to heaven. They need to have lived life opressed. Suicide bombing is an act of desperation.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Isreal responds by acting on the best information possible killing the man in the red shirts co-conspiritors and the occasional accidental civilian.

Ah yes, the whole "use your mobile meet a missile" approach. It kills more than just the occasional civillian. Not to mention the fact that Israel regularly sends armies to occupy cities and towns in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, imposing illegal curfews and turfing residents out their homes and places of work so that they can turn it into military establishments. Do the UK do the same in Northern Ireland?

[riseagainstrocks]

Originally Posted by Fal

Israel is fighting an offensive war, not a defensive one. They do not hate the Jewish people, they hate that the presence of Israel means that millions of Palestinians are being displaced, thousands are kept prisoner, Israel ignores country boundaries in it's opression of Palestine, Israel practically ignores Human Rights etc etc ...

Let's not forget who struck first. As I said before (and many of you seem to be missing this) Isreal has been fighting for its very survival as a country since his founding. Isreal was wrong (in international law) to occupy parts of Lebanon and Palestine. But what the hell were they supposed to do? Just wait till everyone living on the out edge of Isreal is killed by missle attacks?

Originally Posted by Fal

If Israel stopped acting like morons, there would be no need for conflict.

I think you mean if Isreal didn't exist the Arab world wouldn't feel the need to kill people simply based on their faith.

Originally Posted by Fal

Crap, I was forgetting that EVERY LEBANESE PERSON IS A FUTURE SUICIDE BOMBER. We should kill them all, and the tourists who are there, to eliminate the threat. I mean seriously, those 400 lebanese civillian casualties? They weren't innocent. They come from the same country as Hezbullah, they're obviously guilty. They were practically WEARING the bomb jackets already as they fleed the terror as refugees, or sat in their apartments whilst we bomb it. I could see the terrorism in their eyes, from my plane.

You know that's not what I meant. I have already said that killing innocents it's not acceptable and when it does happen it is regretable. But you can't deny that the culure these children are brought up in is one that praises suicide bombers, compares them to saints. Pictures of these men are plastered all over the place, with platitudes and praises scrawled all over them. I am NOT saying kill them all to prevent the possibility, I'm simply throw out the fact that the odds that they will commit an act of terrorism is high.

Originally Posted by Fal

For the record, I'm being disproportionate. Israel is dealing with Lebanon and Palestine the same way that the Nazis dealt with the Jews. Ghettoisation, disproportionate retribution and oppression.

Bull****. If anything it's the Palestinians and Lebanese who share Hitler's idealogy. Their clerics condemn the very fact that Isreal exists. They issue fatwa's and jihad's on the citizens of Isreal, THEY WISH TO COMMIT GENOCIDE. And disproportionate retribution? Maybe over the last few weeks. But you have to realize. Every time 1 Isreali dies it's the equivanlent of 45 Americans dying (the ratio is near there, maybe higher). It's a big deal. If 45 British citizens were killed by terrorist you'd want revenge as well correct? And it's not like Isreal is saying "Hey, let's bomb the hospital" They are legitimatly seeking targets, quite unlike the religious radicals.

Originally Posted by Fal

Excuse me? How is it hypocritical of me to tell Israel to not target civillian locations with shells and patriot missiles?

By not condeming the actions of the Terrorist groups (Hezbollah) that started this maybe?

Originally Posted by Fal

Start a thread about it so that we can complain about the terrorists then. If you hadn't noticed this thread is about Israels actions against Lebanon, so specific acts of unrelated terrorist groups from the area understandable don't pop up much.

The start of the action was against the group Hezbollah, a state sponsered terrorist organization. They might have been freedom fighters at one point. But freedom fighters don't tend to lauch missles at civilian homes and croweded market places do they?

Originally Posted by Fal

Ariel Sharon didn't complain about $15mil US tax dollars daily. If it weren't for the US, Israel would be bankrupt.

I can't comment on this because I did not know this.

Originally Posted by Fal

This is, of course, after the man in the red shirt has lived a life that is controlled by Israelis. After his brother and mother were killed during an Israeli incursion, after his sister died in the Ambulance on Palestinian land because an illegally placed Israeli checkpoint wouldn't let it pass, so rather than a 5minute journey to hospital it had to take a 1hour journey. After his friend was stopped at a checkpoint and the Israeli troops there took him aside and broke his arm for no good reason other than the fact that IDF conscripts are racist. After he has to spend 4 hours waiting at an illegal checkpoint every morning on the way to work, and 4 hours on the way back. After the village where relatives lives has it's water supply cut off because it's being monopolised by an illegal Israeli village. The list goes on. You can't drive someone to suicide bomb purely out of racism and a belief that they'll go to heaven. They need to have lived life opressed. Suicide bombing is an act of desperation.

The man in the red shirt lives his life under control (if he does at all) is because his compatriots decided that rather than talk, they'd rather throw stones, or launch RPG's, or fire AK-47s or blow themselves up. I'm not saying Isreal has not committed crimes. I'm sure they have. And the international community had better look into them and deal with it as neccessary, but I will side with the Isreali's 99.9% of the time. Why? Because they DID NOT start these conflicts.

Originally Posted by Fal

Ah yes, the whole "use your mobile meet a missile" approach. It kills more than just the occasional civillian. Not to mention the fact that Israel regularly sends armies to occupy cities and towns in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, imposing illegal curfews and turfing residents out their homes and places of work so that they can turn it into military establishments. Do the UK do the same in Northern Ireland?

Again, when your people (Isreal) are being blown up in a shopping mall, reaction is needed. These occupations are not pre-emptive or unsolicited. They are reactions to the racial hatred of their neighbors.

[Barnard17]

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Let's not forget who struck first. As I said before (and many of you seem to be missing this) Isreal has been fighting for its very survival as a country since his founding. Isreal was wrong (in international law) to occupy parts of Lebanon and Palestine. But what the hell were they supposed to do? Just wait till everyone living on the out edge of Isreal is killed by missle attacks?

Palestine pre-Israel was plagued with Zionist Terrorists constantly kicking up trouble with the Palestinians living in the area. After Israel was founded, the Israeli Government treated Palestinians like second rate citizens and set about forcing them out of their homes. You expect Palestinians and their neighbours to just sit back and watch? What if a massive bunch of Native Americans laid claim to florida and the UN condoned it, they move there and redrew the border lines so that they had half of Florida, and set about evicting the everyday Americans that lived there. You expect the US to sit back and say "well we did destroy their culture, they deserve somewhere they can be safe", or do you expect people to kick up a fuss?

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

I think you mean if Isreal didn't exist the Arab world wouldn't feel the need to kill people simply based on their faith.

Yes, because of course people blow themselves up based purely on racism. It's wondrous - all Arabs hate Jews so much it makes them want to kill themselves.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

But you can't deny that the culure these children are brought up in is one that praises suicide bombers, compares them to saints. Pictures of these men are plastered all over the place, with platitudes and praises scrawled all over them. I am NOT saying kill them all to prevent the possibility, I'm simply throw out the fact that the odds that they will commit an act of terrorism is high.

The suicide bombers, to Palestinians, are Freedom Fighters. They're kicking against the opressors because the Palestinian government is kept too weak by Israel to maintain a standing army. That doesn't mean any Abdul Come Lately will sit up and blow himself up and some Israelis with him. Sure, the chances are higher than in America but then again America has a standing army, political clout and a distinct lack of opression. The chances of a Palestinian you meet on the street turning out to be a suicide bomber are still infinitessimally low.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Their clerics condemn the very fact that Isreal exists.

I do too. Israel does nothing other than cause trouble.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

They issue fatwa's and jihad's on the citizens of Isreal,

They issue them on the Israeli Government, the problem is it's pretty much pointless trying to attack the IDF or a Governmental building because the best a suicide bomber or militants would be able to do is take out a check point before they get shot to pieces.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

THEY WISH TO COMMIT GENOCIDE.

They wish for the state of Israeli to stick within it's own borders and to let them get on with their own lives. And wishing to commit genocide is very different to actually doing it (unless you plan to become thought police). On the other hand, Israel does commit Genocide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_a...n_the_massacre

"... Israel could have prevented the massacre." "... Israeli soldiers fought along the Phalangists and shelled the camp to help them overcome the Palestinian resistance." "... Israeli solders driving bulldozers into inhabited houses inside the camp."

http://www.themaz.net/ss/sabra_shatila.html

"he heard the Israelis calling people out via loudspeakers: “Give up your weapons, you and your family will be spared.” Hamad moved up the slope and saw that the murderers were lining up the people who had come out, and then shooting them."

Yay Israel!

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

And disproportionate retribution? Maybe over the last few weeks. But you have to realize. Every time 1 Isreali dies it's the equivanlent of 45 Americans dying (the ratio is near there, maybe higher). It's a big deal.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

"121 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 754 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000."
"1,084 Israelis and 4,091 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000."
"7,633 Israelis and 30,511 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000."

Israel — Population: 6,276,883
The population of Palestine is:. 3 328 300
United States — Population: 295,734,134

So every Israeli=47 Yanks. Every Palestinian=89 Yanks. In effect, if you're Israeli you've had 50,948 of your compatriots killed. If you're Palestinian that's 364,099 of your compatriots killed.

So yeah. It is pretty big. But only a seventh of the Palestinian losses.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

If 45 British citizens were killed by terrorist you'd want revenge as well correct?

Not heard of the IRA or the 7/07 bombings? There are better ways to deal with it.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

And it's not like Isreal is saying "Hey, let's bomb the hospital" They are legitimatly seeking targets, quite unlike the religious radicals.

Well no. Israel really aren't bothered where they hit. Otherwise they wouldn't have flattened apartment blocks in down town Beirut.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

By not condeming the actions of the Terrorist groups (Hezbollah) that started this maybe?

I condemn the actions of Hezbullah and Hamas. But I sympathise with why they do it. I condemn the actions of Israel, but I see no justifications for their tactics.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

But freedom fighters don't tend to lauch missles at civilian homes and croweded market places do they?

They do when military targets are too well protected for attacks against them to make a difference.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Because they DID NOT start these conflicts.

This has been going on too long to be able to say "they started it". The point is that it's Israel who have the power and the ability to end this, not the Palestinian or Lebanese people.

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

Again, when your people (Isreal) are being blown up in a shopping mall, reaction is needed. These occupations are not pre-emptive or unsolicited. They are reactions to the racial hatred of their neighbors.

And when your people (Palestine) are having their homes flattened by bulldosers and forced into refugee camps, reaction is needed. Palestine is so kept on it's knees by Israel that it cannot maintain a standing army. Who do you expect to take action? The idea that it all boils down to racial hatred is, in itself, racist and ignorant of what's going on.

[cardboard adolescent]

Atrocities have been commited by both sides for ages, and both sides have been wronged. However, Hezbollah (NOT HIZBOLLA GODDAM IT) is not a "terrorist organization" hellbent on destroying Israel - they are a resistance movement that was first created to try to remove Israeli troops illegally stationed in Southern Lebanon. In the current conflict, they were trying to negotiate the exchange of captured soldiers, which they have done in the past, except now their demands have been met with a full-out attack. I am in no way condoning the actions of Hezbollah, however, they are understandable. When a Israel has captured your friends and family and has been holding some of them since 1978 it is understandable to be desperate to get them back, and striking back to attempt a negotiation is, though not RIGHT, again, understandable. Israel, however, is to blame for escalating this conflict to the proportions where it is now, where hundreds of innocent people are dying on both sides.

I might write out more later but I have to go.

[tdoc210]

To Raine. Where not a democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic. Communism is bad, it would work though in a perfect world, which we don't have.

[Raine]

Originally Posted by the death of capitilism

To Raine. Where not a democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic. Communism is bad, it would work though in a perfect world, which we don't have.

I think communism is a very noble idea but it would never work any world. Or rather I doubt it would work in a perfect world.
I just think that the way another country is run should bare no impact on another.
I'm not on for politics so maybe that why you can't convince me that there was some relevance and importance to the whole domino theory.
However, the fact that a country (no matter its form of government) is building nuclear war heads or any other WMD should be something to fear. But there's no reason to act on those fears until that particular nation attacks another nation.
This whole thing with a war on terrorism and getting countries to stop producing WMDs is a load of crap. I say that because any nation should have the right to build weapons to protect them should they ever see another nation as an imminent threat.
It's the reason people buy alarms for their houses. To protect themselves against unwanted intruders.

So we should wait for another country to use their nuclear warheads before we disarm them?
So we should wait for thousands of people to be killed on impact, and thousands more to die from over exposure to radiation before we disarm these countries?
That is ridiculous.

The only thing that I disagree with about disarming nations with nuclear warheads, is the fact that we have nuclear warheads. How hipocritical is that?