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View Poll Results: The problem?
**** those non-English twats stealin' our jobs! 2 11.76%
The Daily Mail said black people are bad so it must be true! 2 11.76%
No, people like that woman are the problem! 7 41.18%
That was disgraceful! They didn't even shake hands! 1 5.88%
Can't we all just get along? 5 29.41%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-03-2012, 11:24 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Salami View Post
I won't lie: arguing like this is pretty much ad-hominem. Please look at the issues, saying I'm just a teenager and therefore can't be trusted makes as much sense as me saying something as ridiculous as "Well you're American, so you clearly haven't got anything useful to say about something clearly relating to Britain".

It's the whole point of you cherry picking this article which is causing concern here, not my age.
May I ask why you're resurrecting this thread? If it was because of the last point you raised, that's been addressed.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:34 AM   #72 (permalink)
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^^PM me if you want to discuss, ahem, race relation problems
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what? i don't understand you. farming is for vegetables, not for meat. if ou disagree with a farming practice, you disagree on a vegetable. unless you have a different definition of farming.
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Old 03-03-2012, 02:00 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by hip hop bunny hop View Post
May I ask why you're resurrecting this thread?
I was ordered to in a PM by one of the top geezers around here, since there ought to be some more to discuss on this topic.
Quote:
If it was because of the last point you raised, that's been addressed.
I really don't feel it has. Firstly, you seemed to completely ignore this.
And secondly there's the issue of the ad-hominem you used on me. If you're in the right here, why on earth do you have to resort to such fallacies?

The point was, if you look at this quote from the article:

Quote:
the greater the diversity in a community, the fewer people vote and the less they volunteer, the less they give to charity and work on community projects. In the most diverse communities, neighbors trust one another about half as much as they do in the most homogenous settings.
There is a problem here. Look at the kind of environment in which communities are more diverse. Just because the community in general appears to be more mistrustful of each other than in less diverse communities, where is the evidence that this can be blamed directly on the fact that the community is more diverse?

What we must do is to look at the type of community that is less diverse: they are usually affluent and consist of people with a disposable income. This means, therefore, that crime will be less, because if you are already wealthy you don't need to steal, and are therefore more trustful of each other.

When a community is more diverse, it means there will be people who have recently moved into the country, and these people will not necessarily have much money, since they will very rarely have a job when they arrive. Therefore, they will only be able to afford housing in the cheapest area, which is usually the inner city, where the community in general is poor and the crime rates are higher.

For an example, my nearest city is Manchester, England. To get to the city centre, we have to drive through areas such as Rusholme, Longsight and Fallowfield, which are very ethnically diverse, but also extremely poor. The crime rate is very high, and in the space of two months, three of my friends have been mugged in local parks and there have been two murders.

Now, IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL that this high crime rate is caused by diversity? Not at all, because the area was poor to start off with, the people have LESS disposable income and the crime rate is high anyway.

What I have found is that you're forgetting that correlation does NOT necessitate causation, and that you always have to look for outside factors.

Last edited by Salami; 03-03-2012 at 03:00 PM. Reason: The original post pretty much only said "piss off"
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:10 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Salami; if you want to make me inclined to debate this issue, you're going to have start finding sources that support your claims. Further, please stay away from anecdotal evidence.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:05 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by hip hop bunny hop View Post
Salami; if you want to make me inclined to debate this issue, you're going to have start finding sources that support your claims. Further, please stay away from anecdotal evidence.
OK, every time I've tried to debate you you've pretty much yawned and told me to fuck off, which frankly is shit debating. Also, it looks like you've not really read through the above post properly, I was attacking the idea that ethnicity is related to trust and generosity between residents, and all you can do is ask for sources, when the best you are able to do is a Catholic magazine and a completely unreferenced article written by a law student?

Well, I don't quite know what on earth you want me to provide sources for, but I'll give you something to chew on: here is a body of research done to demonstrate how exactly inner city environments are composed.

You'll see that not only is there high unemployment, but also high ethnic diversity, which is because people who are newly settled into a country have no job and therefore have to find a cheap place to live, which is the inner city, the poorest part of a conurbation.

Quote:
if you want to make me inclined to debate this issue
Furthermore, you appear to be taking the tone of a sage who is here to educate me as to why I'm wrong, and aren't prepared to do that.

Lets get something clear: I've never called any of your opinions bigoted or insulted you, I've put in a lot of effort into challenging you on perfectly acceptable points and have always been dismissed in a sentence.
I'd like it if you either put in some effort to debating me properly, or put in the effort to do some trolling which would amuse me. Please not this pointless unconvincing nonsense which I'm currently getting.
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:10 PM   #76 (permalink)
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It's probably worth noting that you're both using different countries for examples - the demographic layout and diversity in the USA and the UK are markedly different, as is immigration. You seem to be making great reference to illegal immigration, Salami, which is only a portion of the total immigration of any country. Indeed, more diversity is likely to arise through legal immigration in the US than illegal immigration, since the only people really in a position to immigrate illegally are on the other side of the mexican border. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

The UK on the other hand has to deal with a gradual seep if immigrants coming through other European countries from pretty much all over the Eurasian continent and Africa. What's the difference? Well, Legal immigrants are much more likely to be able to support themselves or already have a job lined up (in order to be able to immigrate in the first place). That then negates the argument that diversity -> poverty. While it is certainly one reason why there might be more crime/less community involvement in diverse areas, it is certainly not the only one.

There is definitely a trust issue in the world at the moment, which I think is much of what hip hop bunny hop is saying. There are examples in every single country in the world of how birds of a feather flock together: Ex-patriate communities in every country in the world, sometimes to have a reminder of home, more often because the members are unwilling to immerse themselves in the local environment. There are serious problems in pretty much ever western european country at the moment with immigrant communities deliberately isolating themselves from the natives, particularly with Muslim communities attempting to push through the right to govern themselves under Sharia Law rather than the laws of the country itself (something I personally have serious problems with). Given the climate of tension and war in the world at the moment, it is hardly surprising that communities are drawing in on themselves and excluding those they don't know.


Finally, I don't really know what you two are arguing about.
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Old 03-06-2012, 03:56 PM   #77 (permalink)
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I dunno, Moonlight. If I had to guess, Salami is bringing a quarrel he has with me from another thread into this one.

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Well, I don't quite know what on earth you want me to provide sources for, but I'll give you something to chew on: here is a body of research done to demonstrate how exactly inner city environments are composed.

You'll see that not only is there high unemployment, but also high ethnic diversity, which is because people who are newly settled into a country have no job and therefore have to find a cheap place to live, which is the inner city, the poorest part of a conurbation.
To quote your source, "Inner cities are defined as core urban areas that are economically distressed." That's on page 4. So, yes, when you define inner city as poor.... the area is going to be poor. No surpirse there.

Now, what should you provide references for? You should provide references for the claims you're making, such as:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salami View Post
What we must do is to look at the type of community that is less diverse: they are usually affluent and consist of people with a disposable income.
&

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salami View Post
When a community is more diverse, it means there will be people who have recently moved into the country, and these people will not necessarily have much money, since they will very rarely have a job when they arrive. Therefore, they will only be able to afford housing in the cheapest area, which is usually the inner city, where the community in general is poor and the crime rates are higher.
&

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salami View Post
In diverse communities, I'm prepared to bet that half the people have arrived relatively recently, and therefore less likely to be trusted anyway.
Etc.
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Old 03-06-2012, 04:38 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MoonlitSunshine View Post

The UK on the other hand has to deal with a gradual seep if immigrants coming through other European countries from pretty much all over the Eurasian continent and Africa. What's the difference? Well, Legal immigrants are much more likely to be able to support themselves or already have a job lined up (in order to be able to immigrate in the first place). That then negates the argument that diversity -> poverty. While it is certainly one reason why there might be more crime/less community involvement in diverse areas, it is certainly not the only one.
Yes legal immigrants usually do have jobs lined up, but unless they are professionals or non-professionals with a good salary, they will still end up living in more impoverished areas anyway or cramped conditions. The point that Salami is making and you seem to be agreeing with, is that its actually irrelevant on the ethnic make-up of an impoverished area in relation to crime. Impoverished areas are crime ridden in general, regardless of whether its solely a black or white area or mixed racially, this pattern can be seen across most of the UK, that seems to be the issue that Salami is taking up with HHBH.

You mention about serious problems with some immigrants not immersing themselves into the native communities, well I'm not sure how old you are but I can tell you that it has been that way since the 1970s and its no different today, the only difference today is that its more highlighted by media. I would actually say that Asians (Indians and Pakistanis) are more immersed than they were ever before.

The tensions that you're referring to, I guess are the continuing economic crisis but as for wars!!! There are no more skirmishes today than there were before.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:05 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Aye, I know. a lot of these problems go back a long way. If anything, the simple fact that nothing has been done to help that is worrysome enough. Globalisation, you would think, would be helping break down the barriers between cultures, but it doesn't seem to be happening.

I agree with Salami in that there is a correlation between crime and the simple poverty of the area, but I disagree with him in that he seems to be implying that that is the sole reason. There is a distrust between different cultures, and it isn't helping.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:12 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Aye, I know. a lot of these problems go back a long way. If anything, the simple fact that nothing has been done to help that is worrysome enough. Globalisation, you would think, would be helping break down the barriers between cultures, but it doesn't seem to be happening.

I agree with Salami in that there is a correlation between crime and the simple poverty of the area, but I disagree with him in that he seems to be implying that that is the sole reason. There is a distrust between different cultures, and it isn't helping.
It all comes down to economics, when people are earning and in employment most people get on well with their neighbours regardless of who they are. When they're not earning and in employment, relations become more strained and new immigrants become the target for that scorn and that is what's happening today. Human beings are rather simple characters really when it comes to economics.

Last edited by Unknown Soldier; 03-07-2012 at 12:55 PM.
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